Sluttin' My Way to Skinny
A friend of mine suggested that I check out the newest craze of exercise videos... pole dancing and lap dancing. Pole dancing and lap dancing? Are you kidding me? What could they possibly be titled?
All in less than 10 minutes a day!
What bothers me is that these “exercise videos” are right next to all of the other aerobics, yoga, pilates, and tae-bo videos. Our young girls are already obsessed with being thin and are bombarded with messages that they need to improve themselves physically to get a man. Now they will think that they are improving their health by learning how to perform as a sex object.
I know all about the pole dancing fad that started a few years ago on Oprah. Women feeling sexy, losing weight, it’s great, yada yada. Liberating! Since when do we think it’s liberating to be objectified by humping a pole?
Labels: feminism, sex industry
posted by Christi Nielsen at 9:48 PM
55 Comments:
Try it, then return and give your measured, *experienced* opinion.
Pole dancing, or pole 'fitness' as some schools have conceded in response to views like yours, tones the entire body like nothing at the gym, and rather than 'objectifying' or exploiting women, actually makes them feel good about themselves, increases confidence and gives an opportunity to bond with others also up for having fun together in a male-excluded setting.
It is a myth today that pole dance classes has anything to do with the sex industry. Pole schools go out of their way to promote the positive and non sleazy aspects - the sheer skill and artistry involved in spinning around a pole at 10ft by just your feet has more in common with circus aerialists and gymnasts than strippers in some low-rent bar.
Wake up and sniff the coffee re pole dancing as it stands today, and maybe for a more rounded view, even allow yourself to try it - millions of women enjoy it, you might too ...
Elaine
www.thepoledancedirectory.com
As far as being an aerobic/gymnastic workout, I'd have to agree with you there. I'm aware that it tones the body.
But for any of you who haven't seen what I'm talking about, take a look at these links.
http://www.worldofhealth.co.uk/en/
love-sex/erotic-dancing/3233-lap-dancing-and-ente
http://www.befitvideos.com/files/exotic.htm
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007TKH98/
002-9402910-5567255?v=glance&n=130
These are just a few found while searching for exercise videos. As far as what's on the shelf, gymnastics is not what's being sold here.
Having looked at those links, I can't help noticing how you have argued the weakest of points! You have included links for striptease & lap dancing videos to support your views on pole dancing. They are not the same! You have only shown your ignorance, I'm afraid. You hold old fashioned, mistaken views- clearly based on nothing but hearsay- that pole dancing, lap dancing & strip tease are one and the same. They are not. Certainly, some strip clubs have pole dancing poles, and some women do dance naked on poles. That doesn't mean that ALL do, and that pole dancing is inextricably linked with the removal of clothes, or entertaining men. Women who pole dance for fitness tend to wear short & a t-shirt, plus either bare feet or trainers. Men are banned from most classes, soley for the reason that they, like you, will turn up and assume that they will see nudity & man-teasing. They will not. Oggling men are not welcome. The 'fetish' pole shoes that you might see are worn simply because the platform provides space to hook the heel onto the pole when turning upside down, not to appeal to men. The best dancers usually dance barefoot. At the Miss Pole World Championships, nudity/ undressing/ striptease was strictly forbidden, and the winner, Elena Gibson was later disqualified for changing costume midway. The competition was solely about the aerobic & athletic aspects- similar to performing on rings at the Olympics. It bugs me to see you spouting off outrgae about something you so evidently know virtually nothing about! At least get information before attacking something you don't understand.
My apologies for lumping them together. Before I posted, I did some searches online and came across numerous references such as this…
“Lil' Mynx removable stripper pole for home use. The #1 pole used for striptease aerobics and welcomed into the homes of many celebrities”
“My Pole Shop sells an extensive range of instructional pole and lap dancing DVDs.”
So you can see that if the people advertising it combine them, then I would as well. Also, I did mention in my original post that my friend suggested pole dancing AND lap dancing. So that’s why I included them. But I didn’t search for specific videos. I just found these looking for exercise videos. I picked them because of what the packaging represents.
Now as for the other issue – I’m all for finding a great workout and the benefits that come from this kind of strength training. It would be similar to gymnasts who work the rings or balance bars, etc. This bar just happens to be vertical. Not a problem. But I have yet to see it marketed without sexual references. Granted, we all can’t be privy to everything, so I haven’t seen the competitions. I'm glad to know that there are classes out there that function like a gymnastics class. So where can I find an instructional video without a girl on the front sticking out her butt and boobs?
I even went to that website that Elaine mentioned because I was interested to see it presented in a different light. But right there on the front page is a girl hanging upside down from a pole with her legs up in the air and spread, complete with thigh-high black stiletto boots and black panties. Why is that? If it’s a “sport”, then market it as such. I’m not saying that you have to be fully clothed, but you don’t see gymnasts performing in lingerie.
And please don’t get me wrong ladies. I’m not trying to upset or attack anyone. I absolutely admit that I don’t know much about this. What I do know is what I’ve seen – which means main-stream marketing. I don’t for one second think that every person who does this is trying to act like a ho. But whether you admit it or not, pole dancing videos in general are blatantly marketed with women as sex objects. Perhaps that will change over time. One can only hope.
Christi, you are so right and as always, so valid. These videos shouldn't be next to the "regular" exercise videos at the store. Seriously!
You take the most amazing photos! Do you take these photos of yourself??? If so, how the heck to do you get the MOST AMAZING shots?! I'm envious.
As a female, I don't understand for a minute the argument that if something is presented in a sexual context, that it means it's exploitative or 'objectifying' of women. Whatever happened to the idea that women might CHOOSE to put on a sexy outfit or act flirtily because it makes THEM feel good about themselves and they enjoy it.
Here in the UK we have a chain called 'Ann Summers', selling adult products and sexy lingerie, which now has a shop on nearly every high street. Some may see this as demeaning and objectifying of women in particular, and contributing to the collapse of modern society's morals in general. Personally, I see it as a handy place to buy pants, and feel no more threatened or diminished by it than I do buying bread in the supermarket .... am I missing something?!
Similarly, I freely choose to pole dance and have no issue whatsoever with the fact its a sensual dance form. Many forms of dance are (and include poses with split legs incidentally; and the girl is wearing shorts not 'panties'). I'm a tomboy, and it's one of the few moments I actually get in touch with my feminine side. This is something to celebrate, not quash.
I guess I just feel comfortable in my gender and person, and the need to continually identify external threats or victimising forces in everything just isn't there. Being female to me is incidental, not a burden, and nor should it be EVER a straitjacket.
Those are shorts? Well, I stand corrected.
Thanks for your honesty guys. I do realize that quite a few of you are coming here from the blog at the pole dance directory, and I welcome your comments. I'm not one to put something that loaded out there and then not be open to someone else's viewpoint. You may not change my mind, but at least I'll listen.
Thanks Mel.
Yes, I take these myself with a wireless remote. It takes a lot of time and a lot of trial and error!
Images of fertility, youth and fitness attract the eye and tirgger chemical changes in ourselves.
They are in of themselves "advertisements" saying, "I am healthy, and can reproduce". Does this advertisement objectify women? Does a woman appearing or acting sexual, lessen her? I think your notion of sexuality and sensuality are puritan at best. No one should be evaluated solely by the physicalty they poses, but to outright attack it is rather narrow-minded. Oh for the pole-dancing...I think it is weird at strip clubs and at home.
What you have to remember is that the companies producing the DVDs have an 'agenda', (i.e. to sell as many copies as possible). Therefore what you see on the shelves reflects that and does not necessarily reflect the views of pole dancing instructors, pole dance performers or for that matter their teaching ethic.
I think you are thinking about this waaaaaay too much and too deep.
It is quite simple actually, if you don't like it or you disagree with it, 1.) Do not buy it, 2.) Go tell the store manager what you think and make a change.
Objectifying people is never an exceptable outcome, whether to sell something, or to have your landscaping done.
But wow, fix it, get over it and move on
Regardless of what some of your negative posters think, I agree with what you are stating and think you are absolutely right.
How come anonymous people have such strong views and stand up for what they believe in, but never use a name other than anonymous? Are they too lazy to create an account on blogger, but not too lazy to post six paragraphs on their views? And perhaps this is an attack on anonymous people, because I tend to scan over their comments, since they don’t use their real name or even a pseudo name. So if I want people to take me serious in my views and I want people to consider to opinions, I am just going to post as anonymous. I wonder if that user name is taken from blogger. This is all I have to say, since I am a male, I feel my opinion will just automatically be null and void.
"anonymous" formerly known as Russell
No opinion is null and void, in my opinion. ;-)
Yes - well - the anonymous phenomenon. That's how it goes in blogger world. You can always tell which posts have upset people the most because they have the most anonymous comments.
Actually, they don't have to create an account. They can still enter a name. It's not that we bloggers want to hunt you down or anything. It just makes it easier to converse because you start to lose track of which anonymous your talking to.
What a load of rubbish!!! Pole fitness is nothing like the bars, my students sweat it out in gym kits grunting and laughing as they try and perfect a move whilst getting fit and having fun, its not like the clubs were we parade around the gym in bikinis and 7" shoes!! Uneducated people are so ignorant sometimes on subjects *rolls eyes*
Oh and by the way my name is HUNNY loud and proud thats H U N N Y
H-is for the Humility you've shown
us.
U-is your Unambigous view you've
shared.
N-is the Navel on your tummy.
N-is the Nighty that on the pole
you don't wear
Y-is the Yummy moves you teach your students five feet, oh yes five feet high in the air.
Put them all together they spell HUNNY... A real pole instructor and defender of the defamation of women and of the sport!
A sport? Pole dancing defined as a sport...interesting. I imagine two teams of women on a field with poles in hand charging at each other, 8 inch heels and their preferred outfit (shorts or g-strings). Seems interesting...then again I am male and so that could just be a fantasy playing out. The point that Christi is making is the branding and marketing in which the pole dancing is directed. Its sex, plain and simple. It might be a workout, it might tone the body. And its possibly a very exhausting exercise. But come on why are we kidding ourselves. Sex sells, pole dancing is seen as exotic and erotic. It the benefits are making women feel sexy then great. But it was born from a sex venue and marketed as such. And in my opinion nothing wrong with that. To each their own.
ps...I said I would use anonymous next time.
First - to anyone that sets any kind of store by the word 'Anonymous', this is a message from www.thepoledancedirectory.com broadcasting loud and clear and proud to stand by every word I type...
Second - got an issue with the marketing and branding of these DVDs? Blame their marketing people. They above anyone else are of the gospel that 'sex sells' and apply this indeterminately across the board whether to cars, ice-cream or shampoo. That is the currency of the modern world but personally I kinda see that for what it is and certainly wouldn't let myself be/feel 'objectified' by it. Anyone of any intelligence surely recognises that as the inconsequential marketing guff that it is?!
Thirdly - pole dancing. Sigh. I am getting sooo bored of having to 'justify' this to people who haven't even tried it before they bleat on about corruption, objectification, victimisation blah blah effing blah .... It's simple ... you get on a pole, you learn tricks, develop muscles, feel confident, maybe proud that you are 50-plus or 13 stone-plus and can still pull off something as impressive and enviable .... and hell sometimes you might even wear a pair of heels to do it in. So what? I might do when I'm ironing! Big deal.
And yes ... it can be a sensual dance form - so can ice-skating (and much knicker-flashing short-skirtery goes on there?!) Not to mention belly and salsa dancing.
Please please people - don't automatically fall back on your prejudices, either try it, or do 'just' a little research before airing your views....
WWW.THEPOLEDANCEDIRECTORY.COM
This post has been included in the 15th carnival of feminists, found here.
Great - more feminist 'informed' rants on pole dancing then.
wow.. quite a discussion going on. :) Good entry though.. Now *this* is a topic I could get into.. I actually never have associated pole dancing with sexual objectification and pleasing men. I don't know why I never associated the two because usually I am real touchy about things like that, and I do see your point, Christi. In some ways, you COULD be objectifying yourself, with the element of men there (particularly strangers). But usually, I think women just do this for fun and with other women, as in a class. IF they were to dance for another man, it would probably be their SO which changes the objectification a bit..
Probably, my view has something to do with the things I've seen on tv. Actually projecting pole dancing as a positive thing for women. The whole empowerment thing. Even doing it for themselves, and dancing for the ladies (as in, the class) rather than men. I can see how it would be a lot of fun. I'm even curious.. Though i'm not about to buy a pole. I see this trend touching a more upper-class audience. With resources (classes, teachers, etc.) gravitating towards city/urban areas. There is a sort of elitism with pole dancing, which is a step up, at least, from strippers being looked down upon.
I saw a special on either the WE (Women's Entertainment) channel or TLC about women in the "sex business" (I can't remember exactly what the title was, but it was definitely sex business/sex trade type of a thing). They featured an escort, a dominatrix, and a pole dance instructor... The way they focused the people made them human... like they were just everyday 'normal' people. And they are! The pole dancer even seemed down to earth with a good head on her shoulders. She was probably my favorite of the show, and seemed the most positive. I saw pole dancing as something positive for women to help them feel sexy and increase self confidence. Personally though, I still vouch for bellydancing doing the same thing, in a more artistic way. ;)
And anonymous, thepoledancedirectory.com, etc. Christi is more than welcome to share her views on her own blog. It's just food for thought. Putting one view out there doesn't mean it's the only view. There is no right or wrong.. Why don't we all just judge for ourselves..
Wow! Christi, I'm sorry that I left my comment on flickr and not here. I'm amazed at the response you've gotten. For crying out loud, these people, almost all anonymous, haven't seen past their defense of their decision to take pole-dancing.
Okay, here goes. Which came first? Strippers pole-dancing or non-strippers pole-dancing. Well, there always has been dancing around the May pole, but even I know that's a pole of a different name. The point here is that even though women want to be able to feel strong in their own sexuality and sexual identity - THANK GOODNESS!!!!! - our identity of sexuality is being packaged for us to consume.
Do we all want to be strippers? I don't think we do. However, pole dancing became a popular form of entertainment for men through the popularization of pole dancing by strippers. So, just look at that association and the way it's still considered a risque activity.
A letter to the Georgia Straight newspaper by a man puts the argument in it's right context:
"Legitimizing and dignifying the work of pole-dancing by describing it as "sexy exercise" is simply dressing up the same sexist attitudes that sustain the pornography industry. It does nothing to dignify the women involved; it simply dignifies the sex industry and makes it easier for men to use women for their sexual needs."
http://www.straight.com/content.cfm?id=5017
It's almost no use arguing with the post-feminist generation because after all the work done to get us to this place of being able to be claim our own sexuality, is being negated by the exceptionally strong portrayal of women as sex objects by the media. There is a difference. The image of sexual women we are fed is not really the choice made by women, the choice was made for us and is marketed to us in such things as music videos, the main-streaming of pornography, and through advertising.
This was my reading of Christi's blog, and I agree with her argument. Read it with an open mind, not one closed to alternative ideas. Just remember that pole dancing by strippers came first. Stripping and sex-trade workers exist only to service men by offering up women to the male gaze for money. There is a connection. Don't be afraid to look at it.
Keep up the excellent work Christi!
I'm not anonymous, I am Janis!
a.k.a. memaxmarz on flickr.
Oprah is a ass. She makes me sick. I totally agree with you. I have more important things to worry about in my life than how sexy I look on a pole. How degrading. I am not a walking sex object, I am a human being. What will all these idiotic women do when they get old and aren't sexy anymore? It happens to all of us. Will they have personalities to fall back on? Ask any glamour girl over 40 how painful it is when they stop turning heads. How difficult it is to just get by in a lot of situations when your looks fail to open doors and get you special treatment or favors or freebies. Then you have to survive on your wits, and charm. Not a pole.
Christi, I agree with you on the fact our young girls are bombarded with sexuality and self image from every angle. This being only one of a million ways. I dont have a problem with pole dancing in general heck might even try it someday but I do agree with your point... too much is too much for the younger generation... As a mother of a 13 year old they are learning about too much adult stuff far to young... Just my point of view.
Thanks again for getting the old thinker thinkin' :)
Nice post. I've actually taken a pole-dancing class (as part of a bachelorette party for a friend), and found it incredibly difficult. We were all pretty beaten up by the end (at one point, I was bleeding?!) and were sufficiently bruised the next morning.
Despite the good workout, it's difficult to move past the sex-object origin. Any exercise that requires high heels instead of sneakers seems to put a premium on eroticism over health.
do you people listen to nothing? you don't have to dance in 6" heels (I don't), but some people just choose to as it makes certain moves easier to perform. The main motivation for most people i have encountered who pole-dance, is not at all about 'how sexy they look on a pole'. As anyone who has tried it will know, it's a tough workout, so if all these people are only doing it to look sexy, why would they put themselves through the pain?
A lot of people actually do it in their own homes, me included, so i fail to see how you can argue its about exciting men.
As for this:
'What will all these idiotic women do when they get old and aren't sexy anymore? It happens to all of us. Will they have personalities to fall back on? Ask any glamour girl over 40 how painful it is when they stop turning heads.'
For a start, i'm pretty positive there are a number of women over 40 still involved in pole dancing, and you know why that is? You don't have to be beautiful or young or thin to enjoy it, because its not about 'turning heads' for most people. Its about a love of pole dancing as a sport, or as a form of artistic expression, or just simply something that is enjoyable to do in your spare time. I really hope that i'll still be performing tricks on my pole when i reach 40!
Wow! This has been interesting. I came across this link when I was searching the internet to purchase a stripper pole for my home.
While I understand many people's difficulties w/ this form of exercise I do have a problem with us denying the "goddess" that lives in all of us....women that is...:-)
It wasn't that long ago that women were ALLOWED to be sexual beings. It was a relatively modern society that started demonizing that part of us in the name of religion. Now, I won't get in to the whole religion thing as it just opens up a whole can of worms...and I do consider myself a Christian...a progressive one at that.
Why do we have to equate sexuality with anything bad? It's who we are. It's why we came to be. Let's not fool ourselves in to thinking that sex is just for procreation. It's fun...for young, old, tall, short, skinny, large...Even those posters here who said that they wear the heels to help with trickier moves...who cares if you do it to feel sexy! Why is that wrong! I'm not dancing (clothed or otherwise) for anyone but the one I love! I'm not opening myself up physically to strangers! It's done in a safe, secure, loving environment. It's entertainment. Foreplay. And THAT'S only in the context of dancing for your partner! I'm not even going down the road of how difficult it is physically. That has been completely covered by other posters who are obviously speaking from experience.
Pole dancing is great exercise. It's fun exercise. It's challenging. AND...it helps us embrace the sexual beings that we all are. You know - I'm an almost 40 year old mother of 2....if my husband can still "objectify" me in my (starting to) sag, (starting to) wrinkle, post 2 children body while I swing myself around a pole...I think I'm pretty lucky! And I hope that I continue to "objectify" him until we're both 90 years old! Keep everything in context...don't compartmentalize your relationships. There are many aspects to them and there's nothing wrong with sexually adoring your spouse!
Celebrate your sexuality and be proud of it as you would anything else in your life. It's part of who we are...supression of what is innate is where we run in to REAL problems!
I'm proud to be a pole-dancing, husband stripping, music loving, 9 to 5 job holding, mentoring daughter, sister, Mom. And I also enjoy long walks on the beach...does that make me a bad person too? :-)
Susan
(I've really enjoyed this blog...all posts...positive and negative!)
Taekwondo, now that is liberating, being able to kick someone in the balls and not break a sweat doing it.
I atleast feel very uncomfortable when men I don't know are undressing me with their eyes and imagining havin g sex with me.
When I start seeing MEN upside down and spreading their legs on a surrogate metal penis in a supposed "excercise" popularized by pubescent urban rent boys for the thrill of sugar daddies with fistfuls of cash to shove in their crotches, then I'll believe the strained "it's just a workout" argument.
What's that you say, men don't have their own sexy sex-organ jiggling forms of bellydancing, can-cans, burlesque, and pole-dancing to perform as erotic excercise? Go figure why that might be (no, really, go and figure it out.)
I don't want you pole dancers as a role model for my daughters. I seriously doubt anyone does. In my mind, you are not a role model, you are a misguided maladjusted dangerous person, because you give popularized credence to the idea of woman as commodity, and my daughters will suffer for that. They will. And so will yours.
You're confusing us with women to take their clothes off for strangers for money. BIG difference! And don't knock the exercise until you try it. My arms are STILL aching from a class I took on MONDAY....today is Friday.
Ask yourself this; what if the pole was parallel to the floor? Would it be bad then? NO - it would be gymnastics!
I'm not in to the sex trade. I'm not FOR the sex trade. People have to get past the century old thought that this is part of the sex trade. It's a long battle but one I'm sure will be won. I don't pole dance for exercise for anyone but myself. I haven't even done anything in front of my hubby.
I'm still confused as to why so many of you think this is wrong? If you a)do this for exercise (and until you've tried it there's NO valid argument you can come up with that says it's not. I have...I know!) and b) you bring your confidence and maybe some moves in to your private bedroom with the man you love..how can that be wrong? I simply don't get it. I've been married a long, happy time to my highschool sweet heart and we've done a FEW things to spice things up....lingerie...toys...reading books together...adding music and candles. How is this different? It's private. I'm not out in front of strangers. I'm in the privacy of my own home.
I challenge any of you who have written that it's wrong and deny that it's exercise to try one class. One...then maybe the rest of us will listen more attentively.
Oh - and as for daughters. My 14 year is an extremely well adjusted teenager who still thinks boys are a waste of time and broke up with a boy recently (after three weeks) because he wanted to hug her too much in the school halls. Her reason? "Mom, I'm just not ready for that." EXTREMELY well adjusted. I'm proud of her and I'll be even more proud if she is confident as a woman....EVERY aspect of being a woman. Ok - would I be alright with her "dancing" in a strip club? Of course not...they are NOT the same thing. Everyone must step back and realize this first and foremost.
Susan (again)...
While I think there are vital distinctions to be made, why aren't men doing it if it is so empowering and fun? And why is a woman's sexuality always based on performing? How you dance does not make you a good or bad person but I will not reduce my sexuality to how well I can grind on a pole. To me it just comes across as a way to market the role of performer for a male audience to women. I hate that whenever people criticise porn/ pole dancing/ lap dancing/ stripping the immediate assumption is that they are anti sex. I am not anti sex because quite frankly I believe that porn and porn imagery are not the sole form of sex. It can be defined in ways that don't involve spectator/performer and dominant/submissive divisions and I would just love to see that recognised.
Well you know, with that logic (above) we can all envy the great exercise street hookers are getting to their peroneus longus standing around hour after hour on hard concrete in 5 inch FMS. How do you know pole dancing is a crock? Because men wouldn't do it as other posters have said, and men that did would be ridiculed, or thought to be gay. When men devalue themselves in ways like this we get it. Why do we have such trouble recognizing it when women do it? Is it because we think they're already there? (Feminisim 101 indicated here).
I actually think there is some merit in the idea of "reclaiming" something (poledancing, obviously) that previously existed only to titilate men and saying "Right, we're doing this as fun exercise, no blokes allowed." I can see the capacity for that to be a very feminist action.
However, I have my misgivings, mostly based around the marketing. I don't think that's how all women marketing, teaching or participating in poledancing classes are thinking, even if we have proof in these comments that some are.
I know a few girls who have done poledancing classes. While one or two are genuinely into it just as a fun form of dance (one also does tap and belly dancing... girl can move!) I also know that some of the others are prone to busting the moves they've learnt in class whilst drunk in nightclubs. Often. And with nothing in mind other than "WOO! Lookit mah stripper-style hotness!"
These women don't seem to be internalising that pro-feminist ideal, so I'm skeptical that pole dancing is being presented to them in a pro-feminist fashion. It's a hard sell to begin with, and it's harder if you're not even TRYING to make said sell.
Well, shit. I thought I was having fun and getting in shape, but I guess I'm just a tool of the patriarchy! Ah, well... I must be one of "these women" (scare quotes, oooh!!) you speak of!
Well then of course, if it's about *exercise*...I'll just drag my 63 year old booty over to the next class you're leading and I'll bust some moves too. And I'll wear those cute clothes none of you fill out quite as well as I will. I'm damned sure that will put your "it's just exercise" where your rational lives.
Because here's nothing that turns the sex pos ions to sex negs as fast as an old woman taking them at their word.
Here in the Feminisphere.
Personally I'd be thrilled to have a 63 year old woman in a pole dancing class with me. certainly i've taken sensual belly dance classes with women (and men) of all ages, shapes and sizes.
and more explicit sexual workshops, to boot. hell, taken with; taught by.
look, y'all who're so concerned about your daughters and so forth: why don't you just come right out and yell "SLUTS!!" much earthier than "sexbot" or "brainwashed" or "poor role model" or any of those. it'll feel really good, you know; and it can't hurt your feminist creds. nothing can, once you've claimed the label and start using it to denounce everyone else who doesn't measure up.
sort of in the same way if you're born again Christian you can be as nasty as you want to be on account of you're SAVED, now.
Well there's slutty behaviour. But sluts? I don't think so. It's the porn pos feminists who can't quite seem to get the distinction. And no you wouldn't welcome a 63 year old woman flaunting her sexuality on a pole because it's all about the performance of sex, and the performance of sex requires one to look like the plastic porn dolls, and has nothing to do with the real deal, which of course, doesn't require one to be upside down on a pole to exercise. Er...
Oh and Belle? Belly dancing is a stylized performance of and celebration of giving birth. That other thing is a performance in celebration of the culture of whacking off.
I really can't stand it when people express their opinions without experiencing the subject first hand. It's like someone talking about how bad cats are, having never owned one or someone telling you writing numbers on your face helps you lose weight.
Miss Christi, I am not knocking whatever methods or hobbies or whatever that is you are doing. I am simply making a point.
You cannot automatically assume you know everything about pole training, when you probably have never been to a strip club or have not even known a "stripper".
The fact of the matter is, pole training is one of the best workouts you can get these days and for someone who obviously is so openly diligent about losing weight to not try, is just ridiculous.
The only problem with pole training is the people that oppose it for illigetimate reasons. The people who partake in it are very passionate for it, because it makes them feel good about themselves. Just like Curves (the American 30 min workout 3 days a week place) brings women together to help support each other and build their self esteem.
Sure it has come from titty bars, but so have many lawyers, doctors, activists, mechanics etc...etc...Speaking from someone who has worked (which is past tense)in that industry for years and never had a bad experience, it's the dirty girls, drug addicts and whores that give it a bad name. Contrarey to popular belief, that is a small portion of the actual amount of dancers out there.
Pole training is a very positive, self gratifying and I'm sure everyone has totally missed this point, woman owned and operated. Except of course for our couples who are in love with it also.
So whatever your belief is, I'm not trying to stray you from it. I really don't want you to. I'd rather you stay just the way you are. Apparently you are much happier degrading people for getting fit and having fun.
I sincerely hope that your weight lose is successful and you find some joy in your new body.
And miss Christi, if you ever become interested in the pole, feel free to come to me and ask how you can get started at:
http://www.myspace.com/sissygirl115
My name is PANTERA and I'll be happy to help you with anything I can :]
Feminists and people who pole dance are probably never going to find a happy ideological meeting ground ... but ironically I think both sets of aims are more similar than either party might expect - strength, independence, choice, autonomy, freedom of expression and so on.
How does a woman with a pole between her legs forward a positive and credible image of a strong woman today?
I suggest looking past the pole and to the interests of the person doing it - to gain strength, to bond with other women (in largely an exclusively women only environment), to have fun. Men typically do not enter the equation.
Sure, the pole itself is a relic with powerful associations still - but that is changing very much as we speak, as it is quite literally being reclaimed as a woman's tool. I know several cases where men actually feel rather intimidated by it, as their partners spend so much time and energy on it; it's the female equivalent of the man's garden shed!!
This change of perception will only increase as time goes on and more people discover the benefits of pole dancing. Give it time, and dont feed the negative stereotypes by focussing on the pole itself in context of its adult industry past.
Last week I beat a man at an arm wrestle, my pole-toned wicked biceps easily outsized his; do I feel belittled, objectified or a porn-pawn?? Nah ...
I'm a man. Having read the extensve argument above for and against women who go to pole dancing classes, it is ME who is left feeling cheap by some of your comments and assertions.
I'm a man not a walking sex organ.
If a girl is attending pole dancing classes - good for her. I dont rub my hands in glee thinking there's another porno sex slave in the making, solely for my and other males' benefit.
That knee-jerk irrational assumption that feminists continue to make is just an insult to my gender.
So: to the girls who opt to do pole dancing rather than go to the gym, and are then labelled 'sluts' and 'whores' - you have the empathy of us guys who are viewed as rapists and porn peddlars just by virtue of our gender.
Some people find it easier to carelessly label than to forumlate a rational argument.
Anonymous,
You can see my thoughts here.
I'm a feminist and I enjoy taking pole-dancing classes... even though I know that thought might make some of the commenters here go apoplectic, because apparently "feminist" and "pole dancing" can't go together... yet, I exist.
And as someone else already said, pole dancing is one hell of a workout. It works muscles I never even knew I had. I'd never had a workout where after the first class, my *toes* were sore the next day. (In addition to my abs, arms, legs...)
Also - in my pole dancing class, there are women of all ages and all sizes. Because, guess what? It's not about trying to fulfill some stereotype of what guys want. It is about US, the women in the class.
A few points:
Sarahyell - men don't do it because women don't want to SEE that. We're not as visual as men are. We're sensual which is why we can express ourselves better in dance - with our without a pole. You're right, porn is not the sole expression of sex but it CAN be a healthy part of it in various forms as long as it's between consenting adults and it's respectful.
Hexyhex: You said you knew a "few" women. Two are just having fun and getting fit and the other uses is poorly in dance clubs yet you seem to think that ALL women are likely the "minority" third. Doesn't make sense. AND...your dance club friend would likely be "slutting it up" on the dance floor with other "look at me" types of dances even without the classes.
Pony: you WOULD be welcomed. Not one person in my classes has fit the stereo type stripper mould. Not one. All ages, all types, all sizes. I have a 5ft, 57 year old that's been in two of my classes. She's great! And having fun. It's NOT about performing sex. AND - we're not "required" to be upside down on a pole. We choose (although I'm not quite at the upside down point yet!). We also CHOOSE to where make-up, high heels, light candels and play soft music to help us and our loved ones get in the mood. When it's not for fitness it's great to add the repetoire right alongside our teddies.
Pantera - you go!!
First anonymous - interesting stance. Hadn't thought about it that way and I think you're right. They can be very similar.
Anonymous male - very interesting too. Your points should be heeded as you're right, you males have been lumped into a very unattractive group in many of these posts.
Amber - keep it up! You give both sides credibility as you're the only poster I've seen who wears both shoes!
Susan, again again.
Hey "Pony"....if that's your real name ;-],
63 nothing.....I have two words "Sophia" - "Loren". Over 70 and still smokin hot. Age has nothing to do with anything except seniors' day at the department stores. Live it up. Like my 74 year old neighbour says "the top may be gray...but there's fire down below".
I just wanted to point out that I found this comment interesting, the quest to differentiate between sex/stripping and pole dancing...
"We also CHOOSE to where make-up, high heels, light candels and play soft music to help us and our loved ones get in the mood. When it's not for fitness it's great to add the repetoire right alongside our teddies."
interesting...and I will leave it at that.
Surely what people choose to do in the comfort of their own 4 walls with their loved ones is up to them (and nothing to do with stripping / the sex industry either?! pur-lease!!)
Callie, if seeing men..
"upside down and spreading their legs on a surrogate metal penis"
..will convince u poledancing is great exercise, then check out my website.
Seriously. Be my guest.
Enough said.
THis is mainly for pony.
I would just like to say i run 4 classes a week 3 private lessons and thinking of running a 5th class for men as at the moment i have two guys who when they pick there wives up after a class ask if i would teach them how to do it! So far i have had enquiries from about 6 guys about them learning to pole dance.
As for the age thing my oldest pupil and now teaching assistent is 56 and she absolutly loves my classes so much so that she now helps out. Most of my pupils range from all sizes (im deffinatly not stripper build being a size 12-14) and all leave my class aching possibly slightly bruised and all with big smiles and feeling confident. All that without a single man being in the room for the two hours!!! wow
I enjoy pole dancing as im sure i have some monkey in my genetics somewhere and YES i dam well do like feeling attractive and sensual hence my love of dancing all the way through life (tango was started in brothells!) SO what men dont want to do can can etc etc but I belive alot of that is there insecurtitys in there own sexuallity not my desire for objectification. At the end of the day I will be teaching my all straight (says alot that people assume male pole dancers must be male) male class in my bare feet and shorts and tshrit (they will wear the same as you need the grip) with no connotations and and aiming for a dam good impressive work out.
The fact that you see a pole as a metal identification of male gender (somthing iv never thought when dancing) says alot about your own objectifying mind.
You are welcome to one of my classes or im sure my teaching assistent would happily show you why she enjoys pole dancing so much
There are two reasons for any human to lose weight.
1) Health, and
2) Attractiveness.
I think all women should learn pole dancing, as it greatly increases their attractiveness by making them look slutty, and as an incidental byproduct also makes them slightly healthier.
This should be the next Olympic sport: The Vertical Pole.
It makes them look slutty...yeah - spoken like someone who doesn't have a clue and has never set foot in a class. Stick with what you know and don't pretend to be an expert on something you clearly have NO clue about. You misrepresent not only yourself but an upcoming fitness choice that DOES make you stronger and hightens your self esteem. Try it...you just might come out of a class less narrow minded, enlightened AND with you muscles aching.
How do I know? Who am I to say? I'VE TAKEN CLASSES!! Unlike you.
I'm sick and tired of people passing comments and assuming that they have all the answers and knowledge on a topic that they are truly ignorant. If you've never taken a class - don't bother to comment because you're wasting everyone's time.
Seriously! Get over yourselves!
Reading these posts make me happy to live in a country where you can do what the hell you want and have to answer to no one. I'm a "regular" person who has had low self esteem for as long as I can remember. I took this pole class on a whim and there I realized I don't need to be a size 2 with blonde hair and blue eyes to be beautiful. I was shown how to walk with my head held high and look myself in the eye in the mirrors they have in the room. If you've ever had low self-esteem you would understand the difficulty of walking down the length of a room looking at yourself. for once, I felt like "Hey, I can look at myself and be proud of what I see". So, forgive me if I am all for something that can make me feel like that. The class I attend is by no means "slutty" or "sleazy". There are no "stripper heels" or even short shorts. Chicks are in yoga pants and t-shirts. Too many people are assuming those classes are smoke filled rooms with oogling men in the corner, stripper heels and no clothes. It's down right disapponting that women are knocking something where women of different ethnicities, shapes, sizes, ages can go and feel that they are the sexiest creature on the planet. Did you want to try and do away with dresses above the knee and make-up too? Lord knows if you have a little blush on you may get men staring at you like you're an object. Cause there is no way in the world any woman could perhaps want to look good for maybe herself...right?
I must say I find this whole discussion fascinating! I've read the whole thing and don;t think there's an awful lot more to say but I felt I had to have a bit of input.
It seems to me that those who have no knowledge of pole dancing, have never been to a pole fitness class and more than likely never been into an exotic dancing club appear to have totally set opinions and aren't actually listening to (or reading) what the ones who actually have experience are talking about.
That I find stunning, I'm sure that if you went to a lecture on engineering and the person who was presenting the lecture had worked in a supermarket their entire life and never done anything remotely linked to engineering you wouldn;t give anything they said credibility. Why should it be that we should pay any attention to anything said on the subject by anyone who has never had any such experience of pole dancing and fitness? You cannot hold a conversation or opininos on things you have no knowledge of and I am fed up to the back teeth with telling people that.
I am at the point now where I refuse to speak to anyone on the subject of exotic dancing clubs if they have a negative attitude and have never been to one before as it is like talking to a brick wall. Go to a pole fitness class, find out for yourself then come speak to me.
Don't lump together pole dancing, lap dancing and stripping. Simply because stripping came first with the pole dancing doesn't mean things can't change. I can bet a hundred pounds no one would bat an eyelid if someone took up Tango classes.... guess where they orginated, brothels. Way to go with that argument!
Finally, pole dancing an amazing form of fitness and with over 200 students passing thorugh my pole school doors approzmiatley 10 of which have gone on to do any kind of professional pole dancing I do not believe that pole danicng in any way leads people into any kind of sleazy world at all. It increases confidence and they do it for whatever personal reason they have; increasing confidence, better movement when dancing, flexibility, strength, general fitness and yes this might be that they fancy being able to pop home one night and shimmy around the pole to their partner/husband's delight. So what? You've never done anything mildly dirty in the bedroom?! If not I pity your sex life!
Over and out...
Pole Kitten
www.pole-play.co.uk
To be honest with all of you - if a woman wants to pole dance, let her do so. If someone has a problem with pole dancing, all they have to do is not pole dance...
I really don't understand why when people have a problem with something they go home, sit down next to a computer and winge. That's all you feminists seem to do - winge about stuff without thinking about the logic behind it.
For example, you posted:
"Why do some men think that nothing will happen to a woman if they are accompanied by a male knight in shining armour? "I won't let anything happen to you." "Let me walk you to your car." "I'll protect you." I've never been able to figure this out."
Well here it is for you:
It is fact (that's FACT) that within the human species the male is generally stronger than the female. Also females are much more venerable than men. How many men do you hear about getting attacked or raped? How many women do you hear about getting attacked or raped? It is FACT.
I think that a male offering to walk a female to their car or saying that they will protect them is a sign of admiration or love - you want to protect the things and people you are fond of, do you not?
You are looking at things from the wrong prospective. Logic is the key to understanding.
You can apply logic to your statement about being less hairy too. You wrote:
"As a Nation we are getting more and more extreme about removing our body hair. Is this a feminist battle that has been well and truly lost?"
The logic behind this is that hair under armpits is not attractive. And before you winge at me - it is not attractive on women OR men. I don't know one woman who finds armpit hair attractive the same as I do not know one man who finds armpit hair attractive.
As for leg hair - that is a woman's choice. Just like wearing makeup or cloths that make you look more attractive. It is in human nature. Look at what we evolved from - in the animal kingdom the strongest or most attractive is the most desired by the opposite sex. Natural selection. But it seems that women have become obsessed with the irrational idea that they NEED to have the newest cloths and makeup in the latest Heat magazine. And you may blame the magazines but the people that work on them need to make a living - if millions of women didn't buy and read them then they would change their agenda. I always tell my girlfriend that she is beautiful. Even without makeup etc. - yet she still insists on doing it? Hmmmm, maybe women want to feel attractive?
To conclude my rant I think that feminists like yourself should look into what they're fighting for and arguing about. You may come to realise that men are not to blame, but rather the narrow-mindedness of some women. You should also acknowledge that people are trying to make a living and WILL do things that they feel immoral if it will sell a product. We have a great hunger for money, because, no matter what you say, money brings happiness. I'm sure you would much rather be a millionaire than a tramp on the streets.
Think about it.
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